Trillion$ of Reasons to Stop the Insanity – with Steve Moore – [Ep. 140]

Linda J. Hansen  

Welcome. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Prosperity 101 Breakroom Economics Podcast. My name is Linda J. Hansen. Your host and the author of Prosperity 101 - Job Security Through Business Prosperity: The Essential Guide to Understanding How Policy Affects Your Paycheck, and the creator of the Breakroom Economics online course. The book, the course, and the entire podcast library can be found on Prosperity101.com. I seek to connect boardroom to breakroom and policy to paycheck by empowering and encouraging employers to educate employees about the public policy issues that affect their jobs.

My goal is to help people understand the foundations of prosperity, the policies of prosperity, and how to protect their prosperity by becoming informed, involved, and impactful. I believe this will lead to greater employee loyalty, engagement, and retention and to an increased awareness of the blessings and responsibilities of living in a free society. Listen each week to hear from exciting guests and be sure to visit Prosperity101.com.

Thank you for joining with me today. Inflation, soaring gas prices, energy shortages, supply chain disruptions, empty store shelves, rising consumer debt, astronomical national debt, rising taxes – if you are like me feeling the pain of current government policies, you will enjoy hearing from my guest, economist Steve Moore. 

My friend Stephen Moore is a frequent guest on the podcast and has been an adviser since I first began Prosperity 101 many years ago. His keen insights and eloquent yet simple explanations have helped millions of people to gain a better understanding of basic economic policies, and the effects on businesses and individuals. He's a well-known economist and is a co-founder of the Committee To Unleash Prosperity. He also serves as an economist with the Heritage Foundation and FreedomWorks. He is widely known through his writings, his many media interviews, and through his radio show, Moore Money. Thank you for joining with me again, Steve.

Steve Moore  

It’s so good to be with you. Thanks so much for having me.

Linda J. Hansen  

Oh, it's always great. We always have fun when we get together. And I know that this will be a great interview because you always have new insights and new information for listeners. And there's never a lack of things to discuss, especially in our current administration. So, let's start with inflation. The inflation rate when Donald Trump was president and left office was so low – historic low – and now we are reaching historic highs. Can you address that for the listeners?

Steve Moore  

Well, you're right, Linda. You know, throughout Trump's presidency, the inflation rate, you know, was about 2%, which is where you want it to be. That's the sweet zone. And so, when Trump left office – the month he left office, the inflation rate was 1.5%. So, we're actually below the inflation target that is generally considered the right place we should be. And we went from 8.5% – I’m sorry – from 1.5% to over 8.5% in less than 20 months under Biden. Now, inflation is somewhere closer to 8% now. It's coming down. But it's still so significantly higher than is healthy for the economy.

If you look at since Biden came into office, prices for things today across the board are about 14% to 15% more expensive. And that's a gigantic increase. Very few workers have gotten 15% pay raises since then. So, what it means is that American workers, especially in the middle class and lower-income working class folks are feeling what I call a financial squeeze because their wages and salaries are up maybe 8% over that period, but their prices are up 15%. So, that means that they can afford to buy less. Their take-home pay is shrinking.

And I think this is going to be the issue of the next two elections is how do we get rid of inflation? Let's not forget that inflation of 9% was one of the major reasons that Jimmy Carter lost his election in a landslide to President Reagan because it was clear that people were feeling the financial strain of these higher prices.

Linda J. Hansen  

Well, exactly. And for listeners who may be new to hearing you or even hearing the terms inflation, can you describe exactly what inflation is? You're talking about higher prices and things. But explain what causes it and how it totally affects not only the economy, but also businesses and everyone's kitchen table.

Steve Moore  

Well, inflation is just a higher price that you pay for your gasoline, for your groceries, for your electric utility bill, for an airline ticket, for a rental car, for going to the hardware store. Everything goes up in price. And, you know, sometimes you can get hyperinflation where, literally, you know, prices go up, you know, 10% a week, instead of, you know, in the United States, 8% to 9% a year. So, hyperinflation where things just get so expensive.

You know, there are famous stories about the Germans after World War I having to take wheelbarrows full of currency, you know, to buy foo because the inflation got so high. So, when inflation gets out of control, it's like a cancer cell. It just kills the economy. And so, now you asked the question of why. Why are we seeing a resurgence of this inflation after, you know, we had 30 years of very low inflation? And it was one of the reasons the economy did so well over that period from 1980 to about 2010.

And now, you've seen – I think the match that lit the forest fire of this higher inflation was the massive multi trillions of dollars of spending that Joe Biden did, which is bad for the economy, on the one hand, because it just transfers, money out of your pocket in my pocket to government. And government is not a very efficient way to spend money. But more importantly, they printed and borrowed all that money.

So, if you were going to put print for trillions of dollars, it's so obvious that you're going to have inflation. I mean, anyone with a seventh-grade education knows that. And amazingly, there were something like 13 Nobel Prize-winning economists who said, “Oh, don't worry. Biden's program won't cause inflation.” And they should probably send their metals back because that was such a wrongheaded prediction. The White House said it was going to be transitory. So, did the Fed. They all got it wrong. 

And so, now we're paying a very high price to – it's going to be painful to be like pulling out your wisdom teeth, to get this inflation back down. It's the price we're paying for the radical big government agenda that Joe Biden has put in place.

Linda J. Hansen  

Exactly. And like so many things, it can happen very quickly that the inflation rate rises very quickly.

Steve Moore  

Yes.

Linda J. Hansen  

But it may be a painful process to reduce it. So, it's –

Steve Moore  

And also, you know, one of the things that people, you know, you have to ask the current the question – kind of the fundamental question – why do we have currencies? What is the point of $1 bill? What is the point of a yen or euro? What function do currencies solve? And the, of course, you know, currencies are important because they're a way to trade. You trade with me. You've got something I want. I've got something you want. And we don't barter. We use, you know, a government currency to make that trade possible. So, it provides for a free-market economy to work.

And so, what then – the question, of course, what do you want in a currency? And you want a currency to be stable in value. You want $1 to be – is, you know, valuable today, as it is tomorrow, as it will be a year or 5 or 10 years from now. And if that – if you lose faith in a currency, then you get that rapid inflation because people no longer trust it. And that destroys an economy. So, sound money is one of the four principles of a strong economy. And we don't have a stable currency right now. We just don't.

Linda J. Hansen  

And what would you recommend people do to encourage our elected officials to be more accountable in this area?

Steve Moore  

I think, well, first of all, we have to get rid of the people who caused the inflation in the first place. So, you know, and I just think anybody who's been in Congress who allowed this to happen, they deserve to be put back in the private sector where they belong. They shouldn't be in a place they've abused the public trust by this massive, massive spending.

So, it's really something that is not just incomprehensible, but unconscionable what's happened to our country. The damage this has done. And it's – you know, the thing that's most unconscionable about it is, you know, we feel the pain of the inflation now and all the higher debt. But of course, this is something that it's going to take us 25 to 30 years to undo the damage that Joe Biden has done to our country. It's extraordinary.

I'm heartbroken by this agenda and it's got to be stopped immediately. They keep talking about trillions and trillions of more spending. They actually think that government spending stimulates the economy. Government spending only stimulates one thing and that's government. The only way that the government can spend the dollar is taking $1 away from me and you. So, it makes us poor, not richer.

Linda J. Hansen  

Exactly. And, you know, we can't spend our way out of a recession or a depression.

Steve Moore  

That’s right.

Linda J. Hansen  

Exactly. You can't do it in your home economy, you know, with your home budget.

Steve Moore  

Yeah.

Linda J. Hansen  

And you can't do it in a national economy. So, it's really important for government officials to rein in spending and put some caps on things and really reprioritize, too –

Steve Moore  

Yeah.

Linda J. Hansen  

– what they're spending on. And, you know, we can look at some of the things that we've talked about recently, too. I know you've addressed even the student loan Forgiveness Program. Can you tell listeners why that is harmful for them, for their home economy, for their businesses? Why is this student loan Forgiveness Program that's promoted as such a positive thing by the administration – why is it so damaging to individuals and families, and to our economy and nation overall?

Steve Moore

Well, I mean, I think it's pretty self-evident. I think most thinking people understand that, you know, when the government “forgives” a debt, it just means that you and I have to pay it off for them. And that's incredibly irresponsible. It encourages bad behavior, and it punishes people for the people who didn't pay back their loans. I mean, there's nothing positive to say about this. If anybody should pay off the student loans, it should be the universities that overcharged the families in the first place, not me and you? Why should that burden be on us?

And, you know, you look at people who have graduate degrees and make over $100,000 a year, they're not paying back their loans. So, you're going to tax somebody who never went to college so they can pay for the person who did pay to college. It's one of the most regressive policies ever. And it will destroy the student loan program. Nobody's ever going to pay back a student loan again in the history of this country if we relive the loans that are out there. I mean, you'd be a chump if you paid back your loan.

I mean, and so the people who I found out the angriest about them – the Americans are not just opposed to this, they're very angry about it. It just – it seems so fundamentally unfair and so un-American that we would tell people, you know, even though you made this promise to pay, you don't have to pay back the money you owe to the American people. And I just – I get so angry about it. And of course, that makes inflation worse because it increases the amount of debt in the economy. And we're in a death spiral that is very dangerous.

I mean, I really believe the economy is on the verge of a collapse if we continue on this course that could make the Great Depression look like a picnic. I mean, we've got over $23 trillion of debt now – $23 trillion. And, you know, when I first got involved in this business, you know, it was $2 trillion. Now we're up to 23 trillion. So, these numbers are so gargantuan. They're so damaging. Everyone knows it's wrong. I mean, people know – I don't care if you're Republican, Democrat, Independent. It's wrong. It is damaging. It will take decades to repair. And we better start now because we're just – you know, we're in a ditch and we just keep shoveling, you know, the ditch deeper and deeper.

Linda J. Hansen  

Right. If you're in a hole, stop digging. Right? But I remember, you know, you throw you threw around the number trillions, you know, 23 trillion. And I remember when I first met you, you told me that you explain to your young son what a trillion dollars meant. And it was, I believe you said it was LeBron James, if he made so much per year, how many seasons would LeBron James have to play –

Steve Moore

For 20,000 seasons or so.

Linda J. Hansen  

Yes. I think it was like 25,000 seasons LeBron James would have to play at his rate of, you know, multi-millions per year to earn $1 trillion. And so, that puts it into perspective.

Steve Moore  

Well, you know, the other thing about this is – is that, Linda, it's not just that we've spent and borrowed all this money. It's that we've spent and borrowed it. What have we gotten for it? I mean, it's one thing if you borrow to build roads or you borrow to increase your military so you can protect your country or to build a wall around the country to keep out illegal immigrants or whatever it might be. We haven't – this money hasn't been invested. I mean, we've spent it on windmills and solar panels, and we've spent it on a lot of welfare programs, expansions of the government bureaucracy and the regulatory agencies. The things that we've been spending the money on are negative for the economy, not positive. So, there's nothing we can look back at 20 years from now and say, “Thank goodness, we spent all that money,” because we didn't get anything for it.

Linda J. Hansen  

Good point. Good point. And, you know, we talk a lot about, like, employers and employees and how to talk about these things in the workplace. But if you don't have a lot of people in the workplace, if people are not participating in the job market, which is a problem now, because of this government spending and all the government handouts. we need to get more Americans back into the workforce. You know, could you talk about the job participation rate and the jobless rates and compare it to what it was during the Trump administration versus what it is now, a year and a half later?

Steve Moore  

You know, we've – we're probably 4 to 5 million workers shy of where we should be, you know. And so, everywhere I go now, even with all the, you know, inflation problems and so on, still the biggest problem for a lot of businesses is getting the workers back on the job, whether it's a restaurant, whether it's a construction site, whether it's a factory, whether it's, you know, look at, you know, try to go on an airline flight. We don't have enough pilots. We don't have enough flight attendants. We don't have enough baggage handlers. We don't have enough clerks. I mean, it's it because we're paying people, according to Casey Mulligan of the University of Chicago, up to $80,000 to $100,000 to not work.

And so, a big article in the Wall Street Journal not long ago about how, you know, the people really getting screwed by this are the working class people because they're working 40 or 50 hours a week, and they're not making near – or if they are, they're only making slightly more money than people who are sitting home and watching Netflix on their TV screen all day, and not contributing to our society. And that – I have to say, that's a road to ruin.

I mean, you've got to have a work ethic. You've got – and we – look, America does have a work ethic. It's too many Americans are just living off of other people's incomes. And so, one of the things we need to do is restore work requirements for all government assistance programs. So, if you're going to get any welfare benefit – we don't want people to starve. We don't want people to go hungry. We don't want people to lose their homes. Everybody loses their job. I've lost jobs. You've lost jobs. Everybody loses a job sometime in their life. And that's a stressful thing. And we want a safety net for people. But the safety net should be basically oriented towards trying to get people back on their feet as quickly as possible, and back into the workforce. And we're not doing that.

Linda J. Hansen  

Exactly. And so, that's another good action point for listeners is to contact your elected officials and encourage them to promote policies that will bring welfare to work, because, you know, it's one thing to help someone in need. But it's another thing to enable that irresponsibility.

Steve Moore  

We moved from a welfare to work to work to welfare.

Linda J. Hansen  

Right.

Steve Moore  

Now, we're moving the people out of the workforce. And it's just it's really causing economic problems. We have to compete with countries like China. We have to compete with countries like Germany, countries like Mexico and other nations. And if we're not up to speed – you know, if we're not clicking on all cylinders, we're going to lose out. We're going to lose our place as the world economic superpower because these other countries are going to pass us because they have hard – you know, a lot of them have people working longer. They have people, you know, not – they don't pay people not to work. We are paying people not to work right now. That's a really bad idea. Laffer would say if you subsidize something like unemployment, you're going to get more unemployment. And if you tax something, like work, you're going to get less work. And that's exactly what we're doing, Linda.

Linda J. Hansen  

Exactly. And that truly discourages and disincentivizes those who are working. And for people who are wanting equity versus equality of opportunity. They're just trying to equalize things. And everybody pretty much the same thing. 

Steve Moore  

That’s right.

Linda J. Hansen  

And everybody eventually becomes dependent on the government. And that is not what we want. We want to be independent, free people who support the government through reasonable taxes and allow the government to do the constitutional role that government is meant to do. But what government is doing now is way beyond the Constitution. And it is causing so many people financial hardship and hardship in so many other ways. So, for employers who want to help their employees understand these issues, can you give three tips?

Steve Moore  

Well, I love what you've done with Prosperity 101. I think it's so essential we get that. You know, all employers should be getting that material out to their workers. I don't think you want to be – you know, if people don't want it, they don't have to. But I think a lot of the workers want to get this kind of information. And so, you put together a great kit – a toolkit of information you can provide your employees so they can be up to speed on what's happening with the country, and what's happening with our economy, and what's going right, what's going wrong, and how the economy works and why they have jobs, and why, you know, profits is not a dirty word. Without profits, you don't have businesses. And without businesses, you don't have jobs.

And so, all those things are really important. They're not being taught any of this since the schools, Linda. I mean, that's what's so pathetic, is that it used to be we taught our children about patriotism, about hard work, about virtue, the difference between virtue and advice. And now, it's all just this woke crap that has nothing to do with how to make a country prosperous and free. And I worry – you know, it's what keeps me up at night that we're just – as a nation, we're losing our freedoms.

Now, you and I are getting up there. And I'm a little older than you are, but we're getting up there. So, it's not really going to jeopardize your or my future. But what kind of country are we going to leave for our kids if this continues? Or you know, I'm very nervous about that. I worry about my kids and their future, and everyone does. And so, if that's what you care about, then we better stop doing what we're doing right now.

Linda J. Hansen  

Well, exactly. And thank you for mentioning Prosperity 101. You've been such a good adviser in terms of the economic policies and the policies that bring prosperity. And people often think that Prosperity 101 is just about, like, investments or financial decisions. It's not. Prosperity to me means human flourishing.

Steve Moore  

That's right.

Linda J. Hansen  

The ability to thrive.

Steve Moore  

Yes.

Linda J. Hansen  

The ability to have freedom, prosperity, liberty, opportunity. And that is what prosperity means to me. So, what I've tried to put together and what we've worked on together is not just economic information, but information regarding basic civics and an understanding of the foundations of our government, and what truly allows for that human flourishing and economic and personal prosperity.

Steve Moore  

Yes.

Linda J. Hansen  

Yes.

Steve Moore  

I couldn’t agree more. And I love the way that the – you know, the material really makes this so self-evident. It's not a heavy read. It's a lot of pictures and charts that shows how you can make an economy succeed. And you know, look, we're America, we will get through this. We’ll – you know, we've had bad presidents before. This is one of our worst presidents. But you know, we'll get out of this. The American people are wise. They don't tolerate failure. And I think we'll get back on the road to free enterprise because that is as I've told you and your listeners so many times that the free enterprise system is truly the goose that lays the golden eggs. And you don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

And unfortunately, though, that's what's happening. I've talked to employers. You do. They're overwhelmed with this woke stuff. You know, how many – do you have diversity offices? How many lesbians are you hiring? You know, what are you doing to combat global warming? It doesn't have anything to do with their core mission. I was talking just before I came on to one – a mutual friend of ours, who has a factory and a manufacturing plant in your home state of Wisconsin. And he was saying, “You know, we just hire the best people we can find. You know, we just get – I don't care whether they’re Black or Hispanic or Asian or what. You know, I want the best people who are hardworking, have a positive attitude. You know, I don't want, you know, to hire somebody whose first question is, ‘Where's the transgender bathroom?’ I mean, I want people who are going to help our company succeed.” And that makes the nation succeed. And we have too many young people who have just been indoctrinated with all this, you know, woke stuff on the environment, on gender issues, on race issues. And, you know, there's no country that's more racially diverse and provides more opportunities for minorities than America does.

Linda J. Hansen  

Exactly. And helping people to understand that and get beyond some of what is the current trends in the media and, you know, progressive ideologies, but helping them understand the basics of what will truly allow them to have freedom and prosperity for their entire future. Having them look at – what I tried to do, too, is, like, just help people look and say, “Well, what do I want from my own life?” and helping them reexamine the type of freedoms that they want to have. And that's something we've always had in America, and we need to protect that. 

Steve Moore  

Yes.

Linda J. Hansen  

And it's a multi-pronged approach. But, you know, if America falls, there is no other place to go. No one will come and rescue America. So, we must do it from within and strengthen our people with educational resources and opportunity. And so, Steve, I just really appreciate all that you do along those lines, and what a good friend you are to me, but also, to this effort, and to all the listeners. And so, if they want to reach out to you, what is the best way for them to reach you?

Steve Moore  

Well, I hope that all of your members will sign up for the Committee To Unleash Prosperity hotline. It is free. It costs nothing. It's just an email that will be delivered to your phone or computer every morning with just four or five bullet items on what's happening with the economy and what's happening in politics and with COVID. And, you know what – the COVID chapter of our history was another thing. We'll have talked about another time, but just catastrophic, you know, reactions by government that really did so much damage to our businesses.

And so, just go to the Committee To Unleash Prosperity website – Committee To Unleash Prosperity and sign up. And we'll send it to you for free. And I think people will find great value in it. I mean, Newt Gingrich called me the other day and said this is the first thing I read every morning, I find it so, you know, insightful. So. But yeah, it's Committee To Unleash Prosperity. And a lot of good material there. 

And I also urge employers to use the toolkits that Prosperity 101 has available so that your employees can be educated, and they can educate their family members and their friends and their co-workers. We've got to get spread – the new virus has to be freedom and free enterprise. And, you know, not – the virus cannot be Big Government. And that's what we've been seeing. And it's why we're in such a deep hole right now. I worry about our country, but we will get out of it. But it requires every citizen to be proactive and to not just sit back and complain. But do something about it to get our country back on the right track.

Linda J. Hansen  

Right. Do one thing. And before we close, I just want to touch on one thing you brought up is how employers can educate employees and employees can educate families. There's an employer in Arizona who has given my books to all of their employees –

Steve Moore  

Great.

Linda J. Hansen  

– within their organization. And they said that when they – this was a few years ago, but they said when they give it to native born Americans, they've often just put it in their briefcase or their handbag, and not really paid that much attention to it.

Steve Moore  

Yes.

Linda J. Hansen  

But when they gave it to an immigrant who worked with them, the immigrants came back and told them that 20 people in the family read it. So, American citizens, please wake up and educate your families. Because this is not happening in the schools like Steve said. This basic economics and civics is not happening in the schools. So, employers, you have an opportunity to re-educate. And I'll just make a point that Ronald Reagan actually got his conservative worldviews through an employee education program at General Electric.

Steve Moore  

Yes.

Linda J. Hansen  

He was a liberal until he participated in the book club that General Electric had at that time for their employees. He read books like The Road to Serfdom, Economics in One lesson by Hazlitt. And over time, his mind began to change and his worldview on economics and everything really changed. And so, I tell employers, “You never know who you are educating. You never know if that 15- or 16- or 20-year-old kid that you just hired might be the next leader of the free world or a future leader of the free world.” 

So, education always brings great dividends. So, we can do that. So, thank you, Steve. If people want to reach you, I know they can find you at the Heritage Foundation, Committee To Unleash Prosperity, and also at FreedomWorks. But also, everyone if you forget all that you can always contact me at Prosperity101.com. And if you need to get in touch with Steve, I can make that happen. So, thank you, Steve. And we look forward to having you back again.

Steve Moore  

Okay. Thank you, Linda. Thanks for everything you do with Prosperity 101.

Linda J. Hansen

Thank you.

Steve Moore  

Take care.

Linda J. Hansen

Thank you again for listening to the Prosperity 101 Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a great review. Don’t forget to visit Prosperity101.com to access the entire podcast library, to order my newest book, Job Security Through Business Prosperity: The Essential Guide to Understanding How Policy Affects Your Paycheck, or to enroll you or your employees in the Breakroom Economics online course. You can also receive the free e-book, 10 Tips for Helping Employees Understand How Public Policy Affects Paychecks. 

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