Who’s Counting? What Are They Counting? – with Cleta Mitchell [Ep.98]

Linda: Welcome. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Prosperity 101® Breakroom Economics podcast. My name is Linda J. Hansen, your host, and the author of Prosperity 101® Job Security Through Business Prosperity, The Essential Guide to Understanding How Policy Affects Your Paycheck, and the creator of the Breakroom Economics online course. The book, the course, and the entire podcast library can be found on prosperity101.com. 

I seek to connect boardroom to breakroom and policy to paycheck by empowering and encouraging employers to educate employees about the public policy issues that affect their jobs. My goal is to help people understand the foundations of prosperity, the policies of prosperity, and how to protect their prosperity by becoming informed, involved, and impactful. I believe this will lead to greater employee loyalty, engagement, and retention, and to an increased awareness of the blessings and responsibilities of living in a free society. Listen each week to hear from exciting guests and be sure to visit prosperity 101.com. 

Thank you for joining with me today. Ideas have consequences and policy matters. And elections have consequences. Because elections drive policy. Elections must be conducted transparently, honestly, and according to the constitution. Because elections have consequences. And stolen or poorly run elections can have catastrophic consequences. 

My guest today is Cleta Mitchell. Cleta is the senior legal fellow at the Conservative Partnership Institute and chairs their Election Integrity Network. Cleta is an attorney licensed in Oklahoma and the District of Columbia who has practiced election, campaign finance, and political law for decades. She graduated from the University of Oklahoma and the University of Oklahoma College of Law. She is one of the founders and is chairman of the Public Interest Legal Foundation, along with Jay Christian Adams and Hans von Spakovsky. It is the only conservative public interest law firm devoted solely to election integrity. Cleta has served as outside counsel to the NRCC, the NRSC, the National Rifle Association, and dozens of GOP members of the House and Senate, as well as many local and state Republican party committees. She represents numerous conservative organizations and was one of the key attorneys who fought back against the Obama IRS during the targeting of tea party groups. 

She was a volunteer attorney for the 2020 Trump legal team in Georgia. Cleta is admitted to practice before many federal district courts and the US Supreme Court. And I am honored to call Cleta Mitchell, my friend, and fellow laborer in the cause of freedom. She has been a guest before on the podcast. And, Cleta, I want to welcome you back. Thank you for taking time to join us.

Cleta: Well, I'm very grateful that you would have me back. So thank you, Linda. It's always a pleasure to be with you. And I so admire all the work that you do. And so thank you for having.

Linda: Well, thank you. It's great because we've known each other for many years worked on different things together and in parallel tracks at times. And it's just so good to see the fantastic work you're doing and the results. It's just amazing. Yeah, so we've got a long ways to go. There's much work to do. But that's one of the things we want to talk about. Now this episode, for listeners, this will be part one of a two-part episode. And in the first episode, we'll be talking about some known election irregularities that have occurred in recent elections as well as in the past and some ways that we have discovered these and what they're doing about it. Now in part two, we'll be offering suggestions for the listeners on what you can do as the listener, as an individual, maybe a business owner, and activist, or a mom or dad, a student, whatever you can do to help make sure that our elections are run honestly, and according to the constitution. And this is something that every American should be concerned about. 

So, Cleta, thank you. You've devoted so much of your life to making sure that we have free and fair elections, that every legally cast ballot will be counted and every illegal ballot will not. And we thank you so much for that effort. We know it's taken a personal toll, professional toll, but you have never given up on this cause of freedom. So thank you.

Cleta: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And it is important. But you know what's interesting to me and gratifying to me is that I've toiled in this very arcane field for a very long time. And now lots of people care about election integrity. So that makes me happy, I hate that we came to that, really, in large numbers because of what I consider to be a debacle in the 2020 election. And I'm hoping that we'll be able all as citizens to be able to make sure that we don't experience that, again, where there are so many outside influences, outside forces, last-minute changes in the election laws, all the things that happened in 2020, that I'm happy to talk about. That have really made so many Americans so dissatisfied, and not trust the outcome, that's not healthy. It's just not a healthy way for our republic to move forward. So I'm glad people are willing to roll up their sleeves and get to work to try to make sure it doesn't ever happen again.

Linda: You've led the charge on this in so many ways. And I thank you for that. And there are people that are concerned. I think, in the 2020 election, we saw things that we've never seen before. And I think the average citizen has awakened a bit to the truth of election fraud. And while those of us in politics we've fought this for decades. And we know it occurs. And it occurs on large scale, small scale, it's been around probably since the dawn of elections. However, the 2020 election brought a lot of instances to the forefront that we had never really seen before. Could you talk about some of those high points that have really impacted the election and why people are still talking about this a year later?

Cleta: Well, I think that... Look, I mean, you have to take it state by state, in some respects. But I want to go back a little further because one of the things that many of us have devoted our time to during this past year is looking at exactly when did it start? And one of the things that we've realized, I mean, I knew from my research that the left and their billionaire left-wing donors had been spending hundreds of millions of dollars, and giving money to  501(c)(3) organizations to what to do what they called civic engagement by minorities, underserved communities, that's what they would call it. And what they were doing was basically targeting reliable Democratic voters and voting constituencies, and using 501(c)(3) dollars to get those constituencies registered to vote and turned out to vote. Again, using (c)(3) dollars. Because their calculation is that they don't have to tell Black voters which candidates to vote for. If they can just get those voters to the polls, then they're going to vote for the Democrat. I hope before I die, that stranglehold will have been broken. And that Black voters in America will realize that being just a mindless voting bloc, which is what the left... That's how the left thinks of minority voters. 

They don't even think of these as individuals to whom they need to campaign, to whom they need to ask for their vote. To say, "Here's what we've done, here's what we want to do." They don't do any of that. They just say, "We get these guys to the polls, they're going to vote for us." Now that is not healthy for the country. It's not healthy for the constituencies. And it's not a good way for the political process. But that's what the left does and has done. And they've been using hundreds of millions of dollars of charitable money to make that happen. And so I knew they'd been doing that for a long time. But what I didn't realize until spending more time on it this year, and actually, I have a podcast now myself.

Linda: I was going to bring that up. That'd be great. I learned a lot from it. You've had great guests, and it's a great podcast, so please tell the listeners.

Cleta: Well, the name of it is Who's Counting with Cleta Mitchell, and the website is www.whoscounting, that's just all one word, W-H-O-S-C-O-U-N-T-I-N-G.us, whoscounting.us. And I just interviewed someone earlier this week in which... He is a citizen. And he started doing research a year ago after the November election 2020 into the influences and left-wing entities doing business with the election offices in Virginia. 

And it turns out that he's just followed this thread and has identified the fact that there are all these left-wing entities that are funded again by these very wealthy billionaires, billionaires who have created all of these entities that are now in the election offices all over the country. And so they've been doing this a long time. So by the time you have them... So you ask what happened in 2020, I can name three or four different things. One is that the left decided in January of 2019, not 2020 but 2019. After the Democrats took over the House of Representatives in the 2018 midterm elections. Nancy Pelosi is number one first bill out of the chute, H.R. 1 was a bill to remake the election systems in America, to forbid voter ID, to mandate mail-in balloting, require same-day registration, basically to require automatic registration that if you're on a list of any kind with the government, you're automatically registered to vote, you need to opt-out rather than opting in. And all of these things, well, none of that passed the house because the Democrats had the control in the house, but it went to the Senate and died. 

So immediately thereafter, Mark Elias, the lawyer for Hillary Clinton, lawyer for all these democratic committees, and lawyer to all these left-wing groups started filing lawsuits. And they had a litigation assault on our election codes all over the country, they filed over 200 lawsuits starting in the spring of 2019, to get rid of many of the election laws enacted by legislators that required... That if you were going to vote by absentee vote, you had to have an excuse, many states still had that. They were trying to get rid of voter ID. The citizens of Montana passed a law to prohibit ballot harvesting where people who strangers can just go collect ballots and deliver them. And so what they did was that they started this election, I mean, this litigation assault to invalidate all these election laws, and they filed these lawsuits all over the country. Now they started that in 2019. Boy, were they happy when COVID came along because then they escalated it, and they said, "Oh, we have to do all of these things because of COVID." 

And of course, judges all over the country were, "Oh, I guess we have to do this because of COVID." And so you had literally the judicial branch of government all over the country rewriting laws that have been on the books enacted by legislatures. And that was a huge assault on our republic and on the legislative prerogative under the US Constitution. That is the legislature that determines the time, place, and manner of election laws, not the judiciary, and not unelected bureaucrats because that happened too.

Linda: Exactly. And not the executive branch in the States because we had governors who were mandating or decreeing [inaudible] that different things had to happen in their states, and that is totally unconstitutional. So what would you say to those who claim that adhering to the constitutional laws regarding election integrity and election process, what would you say to those who say, "We're disenfranchising people, we're not letting them vote, we're discriminating against minorities," and all these things that you hear in the media and throughout the cries of the left, I should say? Because there's so many people that don't understand the importance of adhering to the constitutional principles in what we have for our government, they don't understand that this actually protects everyone's vote. We're not ever trying to disenfranchise anyone, we are trying to protect every single legally cast vote. So how would you defend that? And what would you tell people who may be having a holiday dinner with those who view this differently and they need some talking points?

Cleta: Well, I think, number one, it is outrageous to be able to change the election laws. In some cases, they brought these lawsuits after voting had started. So it seems to me that everybody ought to be able to agree that before you start playing a game, that the rules of the game ought to be determined and agreed upon, and that you ought not to be able to start moving the goalposts and changing the rules of engagement and the rules of the game once the game has begun. And secondly, who is it who is supposed to articulate and promulgate the rules, it's the legislatures of the states, the duly elected legislature. That means that all of us have an opportunity to have impact and elect our state representative, our state assemblyman, our state senators. And the constitution provides it that is who is to determine the election codes of the states. 

And if we don't that, and that's what happened in many cases is that the Democratic Party and their left-wing allies, they didn't like the laws, and in many cases, they've been adopted by Democratic legislatures. But incomes Mark Elias and this giant behemoth litigation machine, and they just start upending the duly enacted laws. I just don't know many people who think that's a good way to do that. If you want to have a change in the law, go to the legislature, those laws are normally enacted so that they take place prospectively, after the next election. They don't change, right? I mean, literally, North Carolina, you had a sue and settle situation where the Attorney General's a Democrat, these Democrat left-wing groups filed a lawsuit in August, the judge had denied some of the requests for relief. It was a laundry list of things that they wanted. And the judge denied several of them, but the final order hadn't been written. And if you can believe this, the Democratic control state election board, and the state attorney general who is a Democrat, went in and agreed with a consent settlement with the plaintiffs that undid some of the judge's rulings. 

And it was after the voting had already started, and the Republicans took it back to court, and the legislature stepped in and said, "Wait a minute, you chained these people who just agreed..." Violation of what the judge said. And they've just agreed to just wipe out provisions of the law that we enacted, and we ought to have the right as the legislature to be heard here. And the judge said, "Well, yes, that's right. But I don't think I can do anything because it's too late, because voting has started." And so he let them get away with that. The legislature tried to take it up to the Fourth Circuit because it was in federal court. The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals used to be a fabulous conservative rule of law circuit. President Obama just eviscerated that and now it is one of the most left-wing partisan. It's really not just partisan, it's very left-wing. And they denied the appeal. 

And so what you had were just these, it was a completely lawless election. I just have to say that. It was lawless all over the country. It happened in Georgia, it happened in North Carolina, it happened in Pennsylvania, it happened in Wisconsin. I can give you chapter and verse, how much time do you have? I can tell you all these different instances. And I can talk to you about Wisconsin. 

Let me just tell you quickly about Wisconsin, you have an unelected, Wisconsin Election Commission that made the decision to do two things that allowed... We don't even know how many illegal votes into the system in Wisconsin in 2020. They encouraged people to self-designate as indefinitely confined. So you had a situation wherein years prior, the indefinitely confined were those who are literally indefinitely confined and said, "I can't get out, I'm in the hospital, or I'm unable to go anywhere." And so they could get a ballot, they didn't have to show any ID and or any verification that skyrocketed to over 200,000 ballots cast by people who were "indefinitely confined" in Wisconsin. And who knows who those people are. I've asked that question, "What's happening to try to find out who are those voters?" 

But secondly, they made a decision, issued an order that said the statute that requires... If you're going to go into a nursing home and collect a ballot from someone who is an elderly person living in a nursing home or assisted living facility or maybe a group home, that you had these special designated representatives, you had to have one person from each political party to protect the integrity of that ballot from that vulnerable voter. Wisconsin Election Commission just wiped that out. Just said, "Oh, no. We're not going to follow that. So now you have a situation we know that there are, how many, tens of thousands perhaps, certainly several thousand voters votes that were cast by people who hadn't voted in 10 years because of dementia. One woman whose mother died in October, and then it showed up that she voted on in the November 3rd election. I mean, so that's Wisconsin, I can tell you about Pennsylvania, I can tell you about Georgia. I mean-

Linda: It just keeps going. It's an endless stream. And for those of us who paid attention to this and have really paid attention to the deep dive audits and everything, I mean, there is just so much here. And you touched on something you said that it isn't even about partisan. I mean, you talk about, it's not even Republic and Democrat, we're talking about what are free and fair elections. We want every legally cast vote to be counted, and every illegal vote to be dismissed. That's basic. And if Democrats win, if Republicans win, if Libertarians win, if independents win, whatever it is, but every single legally cast vote. And one of the things that has happened is the coercion and like you mentioned in the nursing homes. And I know here in Wisconsin, too, we had the ability to drive up to vote. And where that was done for COVID, I felt that was ripe for fraud, ripe for coercion, like who knows who's driving these people to go vote? Who knows what that situation is? And how many people are they taking to the polls? It's just ripe for fraud and dishonesty. 

And we've had these election laws in place to protect our republic, and those who really want to protect the republic, no matter which side you're on, should pay attention to not only what happened, but what we can do. Before we close this particular episode, though, I know that you were actually in Montana, correct? You were in Montana on election night. And then you were ready to head home after the election. But you were asked to go to Georgia to help with the election integrity it's there. And that has on Earth an incredible amount of information. Could you explain... I mean, if we just take one state like Georgia, you mentioned some things from Wisconsin, North Carolina. I mean, like you said, how much time do we have? Because it's an endless stream, right? But Georgia, I think, could sum up some of the things that have happened that most people who are going about their daily lives, they have no idea that this fraud is as bad as it is. But also, it's almost like, I hear from people a disbelief, there's people, "Well, why would they want to do that? Well, that's illegal. Well, that doesn't happen. Oh, you can't do that." I want to pull out my hair sometimes. And it's like you there's not enough time to give people the proof that things really went wrong in 2020. And it did impact the election. And elections have consequences. 

And we are seeing what has happened in our nation now. We have inflation skyrocketing. We have a southern border that is wide open. People are streaming in thousands by the thousands, and they're not being screened. We have no idea if they're criminals. We have no idea if they're carrying COVID or other infectious diseases. We have no idea what's happening with the drug trafficking, the sex trafficking, it's just pouring in the southern border. We look at our supply chain issues. There is just so much. Those are just touching on things that have happened in our nation since the last election. And since we have this new administration, elections have consequences. And when elections are poorly run or potentially stolen, they have catastrophic consequences because that actors that seek to do it dishonestly, do not have American citizens' best interests at heart. So I know going back to you being called into volunteer in Georgia, that cost you a lot personally and professionally. But could you explain a little bit about your experience in Georgia and what is still ongoing there?

Cleta: Well, when I got to Georgia, as you said, I was in Montana, and I was, actually the morning after the election, headed back to the airport in Bozeman and I got a call from Mark Meadows, President Trump's Chief of Staff, he said, "Can you go to Atlanta?" And so I went to Atlanta. And when I got there, I ended up the very first person that I talked to happened to be a young man, young lawyer in Atlanta. And he told me about a project that the State House Republican Caucus had been working on in Fulton County. Now Fulton County is Atlanta. And it's a Democrat-dominated county. And it has had historic problems in terms of managing its elections. 

And in fact, it turns out that there had actually been a review, a report by the Secretary of State in August of 2020. Looking at... The report was issued in August, it examined what had happened in the primary in Fulton County, in the June primary 2020, which was apparently a complete disaster. And so there was this long history of Fulton County not being able to manage its elections. And the Secretary of State of Georgia well knew that, he knew that going in, but didn't do anything about it. And when I got there, and I started talking to this young lawyer, and he started telling me about this project that they had had underway since early in 2020, where they had been looking at the voter rolls and sending people to locations where it appeared that there were illegal registrations. And so they had gone there and they had over 500 affidavits from just a few house districts in Fulton County where people said, "Well, I see we have John James may be registered to vote here, but he doesn't live here. And so he needs to be removed from the voter rolls." And they had presented all of this evidence to the Fulton County Election Board, and they refused to do anything about it. 

So they had filed suit. And they had been trying desperately to get the Fulton County voter rolls cleaned up. Well, when I heard about all this, the first morning I was there, I thought, "Well, what else is out there?" So then we started having experts look at the data that was available from the Secretary of State's office and then compare that to other government data, whether it was... The post office publishes regularly, they publish, not only the national change of address information, so you can see who has moved away, but they also publish information about what kind of property it is. Is it a vacant lot? Is it a PO box? Is it as a commercial building? 

Well, we found these thousands of people of votes that have been cast, you can see that data that's from the Secretary of State's office, you could see that there were thousands of votes that have been cast by people whose registrations either were not on the books at all, nobody knows how they got to vote at all, or their registration address was actually either a vacant lot or PO box, or commercial building. And then you had this more than 40,000 people who had moved out of their county in which they were registered, but they were still registered there, but they had moved more than 30 days before the election, and they had not gone and re-registered at their new address.

And under Georgia law that's illegal. We had several hundred people that we found who had moved out of state... Actually, there were several thousand who'd moved out of state and had reregistered in another state. Well under Georgia law that indicates you have abandoned your Georgia residence. And then we had several hundred people that we identified who voted in more than one state, that's illegal. And so we pulled all of this specific data together, specific names, specific registrations, here's the person, here's their registration address there. Here's the evidence, they voted. And we put all that together. And we filed an election contest that documented all that because that is what the Georgia law provides. And we filed that election contest saying there are more illegal votes included in the certified total than the margin of difference between President Trump and Joe Biden, the difference was 11,000, the final margin to this day is 11,779. That's the difference. 

Well, we found well more than that number of illegal votes that are cast and counted and are included in that certified total. So we filed an election contest, which is what an election lawyer does. And we never had a judge appointed to hear the case. So President Trump never got his day in court in Georgia. Now a year later... Friday, the governor, finally, after one year, he's saying, "Well, perhaps there should be an investigation into Fulton County, and to the election of 2020." And we have a situation where some citizens have filed a lawsuit to be able to have access to the digital images of the ballots, and then the actual ballots themselves. And they were able to do a great deal of research. And they discovered that there are all of these batches of balance, where the cover, the report on the batch maybe says 325 votes for Biden, zero for Trump. But when they were able to actually look at it, you actually had 135 for Biden, 102 for Trump, but they only counted, and the court recount, they only looked at the batch reports, instead of actually recounting the ballot. 

These are batches of 100. And you have another issue where there are 33 to 35 batches missing, well, that's 3,300 to 3,500 ballots that are just missing. There are no ballots, there are reports but no ballots, and then you have another 2,200 that are clearly duplicates. Now remember, this margin statewide is only 11,779. And then you have another 153 batches, they don't have the reports for the ballots. That's over 15,000 votes, they just don't even know where those are. So they don't know where some of the routers are, the routers would give you the records of when they were connected to the Internet when they weren't. I mean, it's a complete mess. You asked me about Georgia, I just tell you, I don't know that it's possible to know who won Georgia with that mess there.

Linda: You have brought up some really great points. And one of the things that you touched on, and there was never that day in court. And this is one of the things if you listen to the media or you follow people, shall I say, ill-informed people on social media, who really-

Cleta: Excuse me, Linda, those are all the people that watch CNN and MSNBC, and they watch the network news. I'm not kidding you. 

Linda: I agree. 

Cleta: They are not informed. They do not know the facts because we're not allowed to say those facts and nobody is allowed on social media to say those facts. So how are these people... If you all would watch MSNBC and CNN, you are never going to know what really is going on in this country.

Linda: It's so true. It's so true. It's silenced. I mean, even hashtags like StopTheSteel or something. I mean, it's like people would be silenced, they would be taken off the Internet. Now there's something to be said here about the fact that there has never actually been that day in court. And we're thankful that it looks like some of that is changing but so much damage has been done to our country. So much damage has been done in every single state to honest election integrity. And it's going to be hard to put that, as you say, the cows got out of the barn, it's going to be hard to put them back in the barn in a sense and get this back under the constitution, but we must. And the low-informed voter, I should say, are the people that really need to step up to the plate now and find out does their vote really count. 

I think that if people in America truly understood the details of what happened. I think the longer this goes, and there's more and more people talking about it, people realize something was just not right. But people are busy in their daily lives. And like you said, they listen to mainstream media or they follow mainstream influencers on social media, and they do not get the facts. So it's really, truly important to just dig down and learn. It's not hard. So, all you listeners out there, it's not hard, and you can all do one thing, you can pick one thing to do. 

And one thing you can do is listen to Cleta's podcast. So again, it's Who's Counting, and it's whoscounting.us is the website, whoscounting.us, and you talk about these issues, you talk about the court cases, you talk about the instances of true irregularities and the fact that laws were just disregarded and changed before, after, during the election. I mean, it's like I heard you say once too, we don't have election day anymore, we have election season, which is also opening it up ripe for fraud. And so you have great guests, you have that. But we also are looking to inform citizens and get citizens active. So could you talk about that a little bit, just how you want to inform and engage citizens? And that's where I'd really like to take this, as we follow up this conversation in the next episode.

Cleta: Well, also on the website, we have published the Citizens Guide to Building an Election Integrity Infrastructure. And so anybody can download it, it is free. And I'm starting a series of interviews and episodes with citizen volunteers in Virginia. Because people in Virginia literally said... Even though Virginia was not one of the target battleground states in 2020, they knew that things had gone wrong in the country and as well as in Virginia, and they just got up out of their chairs and started talking to one another and started forming citizen task forces. And they're going to tell their story. I'm going to let them tell their stories about how they got engaged and the things they were able to do in Virginia in 2021 to make sure it didn't happen in the elections that they just had, official election day was November 2nd, I guess, but they started voting in Virginia in September, September 17. It's insanity. 

But they've worked very hard. And I think their stories are very encouraging. And they want other people around the country to do what they did. And there are a lot of groups that have started coming together. And honestly, this is going to take time for us to regain control of our election system. But it has to start, it has to start, we don't have a moment to lose. So that's what I want to talk about.

Linda: Oh, that will be great. And so I invite the listeners to tune in to the next episode because we'll dive in a little bit deeper with that. But if any of you listening are curious about some of the things we discussed, some of these things that have happened in different states, or what we talk about when we say there never was that day in court. There's a lot to go into, that's hard to dive into in a short podcast episode. But the facts are all out there. And the resources are available for you to find for yourself. And we invite you to do that because this is a constitutional republic. And this country is still run by we, the people. And we can have a great country. We can have great elections. We can have free and fair and honest elections. But it requires that we the people step up, we become the active citizens we need to be that our founders intended us to be, and we use vigilance to protect our liberty. So we must, we cannot sit back and let everyone else do this. 

I know it's easy to think someone else should do that. But sometimes that someone else is us. And we need to step up. So there's many things you can do from being a precinct captain throughout the year to being an election observer, there's so many trainings, you can just become a voice, a voice for truth and integrity in elections. But we'll be talking more about that in the next episode. And in the meantime, you can go to whoscounting.us to see Cleta's podcast and learn more about the election integrity network. So thank you so much, Cleta Do you have any closing comments before we close this episode?

Cleta: Thank you so much. And thank you for encouraging people to get involved in this. I call it the election integrity movement because I think that's what it is. And I think that's what it needs to be. So I look forward to talking to you in more detail about what that involves in our next episode.

Linda: Oh, that will be great. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you again for listening to the Prosperity 101® podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a great review. Don't forget to visit prosperity101.com to access the entire podcast library, to order my newest book Job Security Through Business Prosperity, The Essential Guide to Understanding How Policy Affects Your Paycheck, or to enroll you or your employees in the Breakroom Economics online course. 

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